Matt on Sunday, 11/9/2008

For starters, your statistics are wrong. According to the State Department of California, The proposition passed 52.3% "yes" to 47.7% to "no." The mere 1% error in this article amounts to an error of over 100,000 votes, so it is doesn't seem that small to me. If the measure had failed 50.01% "no" to 49.99% "yes", I'm sure that your statistics would have been right on. Next time, do your homework.
You can look it up at http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/59.htm

Secondly, why is the gay community only targeting the mormon church. Mormons only account for 2% of California's population. Assuming every mormon in the state voted (which they didn't) and every mormon in the stated voted yes on proposition 8 (which they didn't), that still leaves 50.3% of Californians voting for proposition 8. Why don't they boycott California?

buzz on Sunday, 11/9/2008

hey Matt - before you b*tch and moan about the writer not getting his facts right, maybe you should do a little research as well. it's not about who VOTED for the proposition - it's about who helped fund and organize their campaign of lies and deceit. the mormon church leadership directly asked all mormons to contribute and be foot soldiers for this hateful amendment. THAT's why we're protesting. don't get it twisted.

Steve on Sunday, 11/9/2008

Buzz, why is it that people who support gay rights can so passionately claim the right to voice there opinions, donate their money, and organize themselves as "foot soldiers", but somehow feel justified in denying that right to others??? Makes ZERO sense. You are boycotting a fundamental AMERICAN principal; namely, encouragement of people to vote their conscience and opinion. The LDS church did nothing more than try to "get out the vote". Isn't that what you were doing the whole time . . . trying to get everyone that opposed the measure to vote? We didn't go out and trick people or deceive them into voting in a way they didn't believe. We simply asked people who really do oppose the measure to make that opinion known . . . and they did. The majority of people agreed with the measure. Period. Maybe what you should do is direct your frustration at the inability to bolster the kind of support you would have needed to overturn the measure. You certainly aren't going to change the opinions of those that supported it, but you might be able to convince more to oppose. Isn't that the democratic way? We didn't do anything wrong. We very much believe homosexuality is wrong. I would just as vehemently oppose an initiative to make elicit drugs legal, or prostitution legal, or widespread public dissemination of pornography legal. We just believe those things are wrong. Not only mormons . . . 52% of California apparently believes homosexuality is wrong. Did the LDS population force people to vote? No. Did we passionately state our case and support our cause (just like you did for yours). Yes. And we will continue to do so. A while back I had a coworker who is homosexual. She was an AMAZING person. Amazing though as she was, she was extremely vulgar (by anyones standards), an alcoholic, and extremely course. We had and still have a fantastic relationship. One morning she was questioning, rather strongly (with a lot of vulgarity) for some reason, my beliefs . . . saying that I was wasting my life, and that I could be having so much more fun, and that I was going to be really sad when I died and found out I was wrong. I didn't debate her, but suddenly one of my other coworkers said, "Well Jo (that is her name), if Steve is wrong, at the very least he tried to live a good life. If you are wrong, you are in a lot of trouble!! To which she agreed.
Listen, we are just trying to do what is right . . . and we believe that the destruction of the Family (as God intends it . . . and He does) will bring out calamities to our nation. That is all.

dolomite2001 on Sunday, 11/9/2008

The yes on Prop 8 campaign was not "lies and deceit". They cited examples of what has happened in other other States who have allowed homosexuals to redefine marriage. It's a slippery slope once the floodgates are open. No civil rights are lost in Prop 8's passing. Gay men and women can still marry just like everyone else. They just can't marry someone of the same sex. Unless it can be scientifically proven that homosexuality is apparent at birth and is not a choice, this cannot be a civil rights issue. The root of the argument is in the 'nurture vs. nature' issue alone. They blame the Mormons for the cash infusion, but the bottom line is votes are not bought. Everyone who voted did so anonymously and from what they felt was right. If any group is to blame it is the Black and Hispanic voters. Exit polls showed close to 80% in favor of Prop 8. Where are the protests in Compton and East LA? A bunch of feisty, entitled, white faces holding rainbow flags crying for 'civil rights' they already have doesn't settle well in Compton. I would dare say the "spoiled brat tantrum" America has seen after the vote has set back the gay community at least 20 years. The majority voted and Obama won. Should McCain's people cry foul because Hollywood bankrolled his campaign? I'm still waiting for that protest. You win some and you lose some. If democracy isn't your cup of tea, then get out of America.

Jim on Sunday, 11/9/2008

This article has an anti-Mormon spin to it.

Grey in UT on Sunday, 11/9/2008

The Mormons who campaigned for Prop 8 are terrorists. They used fear as their weapon and hatred as their Bible.

Although, not all Mormons chose to use the weapon and the guide for Prop 8. I'm only pointing out the ones that did.

Those who have intolerance in their hearts and hatred in their veins will truly find out how they are judged by the Almighty in the end.

Ben on Sunday, 11/9/2008

Wow, it's interesting that Mormons are talking about the sanctity of marriage.

Dolomite says "Unless it can be scientifically proven that homosexuality is apparent at birth and is not a choice, this cannot be a civil rights issue."

You would think Mormons would understand the issue based on the persecutions they endured to get their rights... In this case it wasn't even basic CIVIL rights, it was all out SPECIAL rights for their "alternative" family values of polygamy and the such.

Asa DeMatteo on Sunday, 11/9/2008

Matt, I (a gay man) will be targeting the Utah because the Mormon church urged its members to donate money, time, and all effort possible to support proposition 8. An employee of my husband's company, a middle class Mormon living in Utah with his (opposite sex) wife and five children, donated $25,000 to the yes on 8 campaign. An effective boycott will encourage the Mormons to stay out of my bedroom and my life, I hope.

Steve on Sunday, 11/9/2008

You're going to have to explain the "fear as their weapon and hatred as their bible" comment. I openly campaigned for proposition 8 (as did 52% of California . . .most of which were not mormons), and all I ever did was try and get everyone I knew to get out and vote. I didn't pass a judgement about any of the people who were against it, I simply asked that everyone vote. Isn't that the American way? If 100% of the people of the state of California voted, and the majority voice chose in favor of this proposition, what would you say then? 2% . . 2% of the people in California are mormons for crying out loud. We didn't pass a constitutional amendment . . . the majority of the people of California did. How is it that basic civil rights have been denied here? Nobody is enforcing laws on one group that don't have to be followed by another. Just like Dolomite said, gays have the same right that straights do. They are governed by the same laws. A straight and gay alike aren't allowed to marry someone of the same sex. What you are asking for (Ben this is to you) is "all out special rights" for the gays. And so you know, polygamy is a state issue also. The mormon church has condemned the act and still does. When it was practiced, it was not illegal. Do you have the ability to do that? Now that gay marriage is illegal, will you now change in support of the law (like the mormons did) or are you going to oppose it? I mean come on, why don't you guys say what you really mean? You aren't asking to be covered by the constitution. You aren't asking to be "treated like everyone else". You are asking for the government to treat you differently. THAT is what is unconstitutional. It is not this country's job to set that precedent. Besides, where would it end? When the law was overturned by the Supreme court several years ago, the Supreme court justice (not me) asked this question: "what do we do if an individual decides that what they want is to be married to their cat? Are you telling me the state of California has to recognize that union as well?" So what you want, is what you want. Are you going to deny what another wants just because his/her desires are more extreme than yours. And what if someone is even more extreme, or even more extreme, or even more extreme. There has to be a precedent. The Constitution does not protect an individual's right to do whatever they want, just because they want to do it. The voters of California just validated that!

Mike on Sunday, 11/9/2008

I want to know why everybody confuses marriage with religion. Religion does not have a monopoly on marriage--you can obviously get married by a justice of the peace. This country was founded the concept of separation of church and state. In this context, gay marriage can (and should) be viewed as a "civil" right. It should not be confused with a "religious" right to marry in a particular church. Legalization of gay marriage does not, and should not, have any bearing on who a religion permits to marry.

Steve on Sunday, 11/9/2008

Mike you are right about most of what you said. But gay marriage isn't a civil "right". It is a civil issue . . . but definately not a right. The constitution of California now specifies that.

Dex on Sunday, 11/9/2008

There should definitely be a separation of church and state, and it is a civil issue. Yet when any issue arises that threatens our country's morals for us and future generations, it is the right of a people/church/individual to take a stance on the issue and promote what they believe threatens their values.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints never said that they were anti-homosexual. There are Mormons that may be attracted to the same sex. But we know that God has told us that "marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children." (You can go to it at http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,FF.html) It is that knowledge and firm faith that kept the members of the LDS church investing in prop 8 and fighting what they know to be true; there never was (for most anyway) any hatred or fear involved in doing so. And it seems so senseless to have protests going on in front of temples when 52% of Californians voted yes on the issue! IT'S NOT JUST THE MORMONS GUYS

Mike on Sunday, 11/9/2008

Steve- I am convinced that someday our nation will look back on this issue and be absolutely appalled. We will view the issue of gay marriage in the same vein as women's suffrage and the civil rights movement. I think most Americans know deep down that the legalization of gay marriage is coming, sooner rather than later. It would do well to get onto the right side of history now while you still have the opportunity.

Steve on Sunday, 11/9/2008

For one, just because you are being disallowed from something, doesn't mean you get to compare this with the civil rights movement and women's suffrage . . . they are completely different. The proponents of the measure want to be able to do something that the majority of people believe is evil and wrong. Women wanting to vote, and african americans wanting all of the same privelages was much different. They weren't asking for something that was morally wrong. And, just to preempt your next comment, I am not the one that determines right and wrong, God is. And yes, he has spoken it.

Steph on Monday, 11/10/2008

Actually, women's suffrage and the civil rights movement was scene as an affront to those who believed they were "evil and wrong". Many still think so, but, we now call them bigots.

Steve on Monday, 11/10/2008

Very funny Steph. I think you know that there were only a very few whackos that actually thought women were "evil and wrong". Give me a break. The rest of the world was just entrenched in tradition and history. Don't make it into something that it wasn't. And if there are still people out there that believe that, they are the VAST minority . . . you absolutely know that. The big difference, if you had cared to read what I wrote carefully, was that what the proponents of Prop 8 WANT is evil and wrong. What women and blacks wanted, was what everyone else already had . . . clearly not evil and wrong. And don't try to throw back that all you want is what everyone else has . . . because Prop 8 requires that everyone abide by the same law . . . gay and straight.

JJS on Monday, 11/10/2008

Yeah, that's right. Punish a lot of people who had nothing to do with it. In spite of the stupidity of a lot of people, Utah and mormonism are NOT the same thing. About 60% of the state are theoretically mormon, but over half of those are inactive and pay no attention to the church. Many others actively opposed the church. You need to punish the church, not innocent bystanders.

atty79 on Tuesday, 11/11/2008

We (gays and those who support same-sex marriage) stand against Mormons and those who threaten to put ANY CIVIL issue to a religious litmus test. People need to understand that just because YOU believe in a god or dogma DOES NOT mean we all do. It really bugs me that the religious among us miss that point.

How would they like it if I started my own religion that questioned their very existence, worth, or rights, and then collected followers to vote those unreasonable discriminations into law? I understand that the devout see their views as reasonable, and that's fine in their inner circles. But they should understand that the rest of us see those views as CRAZY, FANTASTIC, JUVENILE, UNREFINED, PARANOID, ARROGANT, or at least SILLY. And don't dare hide behind "everyone does it. After all, over 50% voted our voodoo discrimination into CA's constitution." Even fanatics can understand the simple premise that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is true. (I'll spare you the world is flat example.) Just because the devout think what they are doing is righteous and based in truth does not mean in fact that it is true. But we aren't talking about simple pie-in-the-face, oops-sorry realities. We're talking about BELIEF affecting non-believer's lives!

It boils down to the fact that we have separation of church and state for a reason. And, when our government gives preferential treatment to religions, such as the Mormon Church, by way of tax exemptions, we no longer have that separation when those religions use the profit from that treatment (the money they saved by not paying taxes) to promote THEIR religious agenda. And you wonder why you have a target on your back!?

Mike on Tuesday, 11/11/2008

Thank you atty79 for venting my exact thoughts and sentiments. Once I read "God determines right and wrong. He has spoken it," I gave up. You are wasting your breath on these people. They probably also believe that the 5.5 billion non-Christians on this planet are going to hell too.

CYP3A4 on Tuesday, 11/11/2008

atty79 hit it on the nail. The Mormon Church supplied over 70% of the funding for the Yes On 8 campaign. What people are now questioning is the legality of a church using their tax exempt income for political lobbying. Also, with a vote so close (52% is hardly a landslide victory) really puts that extra push the Yes On 8 campaign had into perspective.

Matt on Thursday, 11/13/2008

For starters, I would like to know how many the people who have cited that the mormon church supplied 70% of the funding for yes on 8 actually have a credible source for that statistic. I have heard several numbers floating around and to me it sounds like most people are just parroting what others have told them. Secondly, the Mormon Church supplied 0% of the funding for the yes on 8 campaign. The money was all contributed by members of the church whose income is taxed and who have the right to participate in the electoral process. There is no "church and state" issue, because no tax exempt money was spent by the "Mormon Church."